I believe that if we lived in a world where nudity was not an issue it wouldn't have any negative effect on attraction. In fact I think it would make attraction more real and more natural. 

For example I spend a huge amount of time with a naked Anna and have done for a dozen years and more and yet my appreciation and attraction to her never diminishes. More over I know what I am attracted to. Not a face "made up", not a body altered and controlled by bras, and push-me-pull-you clothes, not a tantalising idea of what a person may look like naked or a lust for seeing her naked and not a body that is altered by any other means for example cosmetic surgery. 

I have found and I believe that this would be the case (if we lived in a world where nudity was common place and not shocking) that we would not lose our attraction to other people but we would be more able to understand how that attraction works. We would not be attracted to strangers just because they are wearing revealing clothing, we would not be attracted to strangers because of a fakery of vanity fed looks but instead be attracted to those people who fill our minds criteria for attraction. These criteria wouldn't be devised by the porn industry, advertisers or media but driven by our instincts. The underfed actresses of TV, the top heavy, narrow hipped bodies of playboy/barbie have never interested me and yet we are told that it is what we want. Tell us often enough and we begin to believe it. When we believe it we are unable to question that it was put into our minds in the first place. 

Part of the reasoning is because they are the bodies that are placed on offer. We instinctively have a want to see and appreciate the naked body. Our nature demands that we find a mate, one that we are attracted to, will remain loyal to and work with to protect our offspring. To do that we need to see them for what they are. To decide who is right and who is wrong for us. The removal of that happening in a natural setting has not removed our instinct. The removal of the natural is replaced with lust - as our subconscious want to see humans naked is replaced with the idea that the want is a perversion. We then have industries built around that need and a domino effect that once we believe that we are guilty of perversion and lust we then link sex and nudity with guilt. For some it is no great leap to become truely perverse and take their wants into more dangerous and damaging territory. 

I am not suggesting that a world where nudity is commonplace would be abuse free but I think it would have a lot less guilt, lust, perversion and harm linked to it. I also think we would see other aspects that create harm dramatically lessened - less anxiety about supposed body faults, less cruelty and bullying about those supposed faults, less of a need to go under the knife (as we would be aware that there truly is a wide range of body shapes that are completed acceptable), less teenage pregnancies (as less children rush forward to experience nudity in a guilty and curiosity fed private - and thus intimate- setting), less body loathing, better awareness of all those aspects of illness, age etc that would be easier to deal with and support if we felt more comfortable together. 

I also believe that it would have a dramatic effect on the relationships we have. Basically I believe that if we remove the lust and drive to see people naked then we also lessen the likelihood of affairs. Particularly if we are able to choose our partners in a more realistic way in the first place. Initial attraction has to be based on what we are really attracted to and not what we are told is attractive. Look how the idea of perfection changes almost from decade to decade in films/magazine/paintings etc in more recent years and yet surely our natural instincts (to breed, to fear spiders and snakes, the flight or fight feelings etc) remain unchanged for eons. If we choose a mate subconsciously based on fashionable attractions we will inevitably often fail.

Look how appreciated  tattoos, piercings and shaving have become in finding people attractive. It is fashion and media that has led us to make these changes and then popularity takes over. How often I have heard people say things like "when .... first took off I didn't like it but now I really do."  If we were to take a person from say the 1940s and place them into todays society his whole concept of what is attractive would be different. He/she wouldn't have got used to the changes. I am not saying people of today are wrong to take these fashions but they are a fad and may well pass and real attraction is something that is much deeper in our subconscious minds. H&E easily shows those fashion led body shape changes over the twentieth century as they are not hidden behind clothes.

We cannot change the world tomorrow and lose all that went before. If we suddenly by some miracle found that nudity was completely acceptable and commonplace then the issues of lust and porn, abuse and unfaithfulness wouldn't suddenly disappear. To me this is why Anna's topic is not about how the world we have can change but imagining how the world could be different if the idea of fearing nudity had never arisen in the first place. A leap of pure imagination involving a reinvention of every thing we know that has gone before.  

My thoughts here may be complete fantasy and some may think are nonsense, but being a naturist has I believe certainly  effected the way I see nudity, women, attraction etc. I appreciate the human body, I respect and admire some, I find some attractive and yet I find I hold no lust or need in that direction and I remain totally attracted to one human being who I believe fits the jigsaw of my mind completely. Sometimes I see another woman who I think is attractive but never one that I find anywhere near as attractive. Occasional, Anna and I may be in different parts of a supermarket (for example) and I catch sight of someone who I find so instinctively and instantly attracted that I feel guilty and almost unfaithful. Then a split moment later I realise I have just looked at Anna and my mind hadn't kicked in who it is. It is always a rather rewarding moment.  

The world if we had never learned to fear nudity and add covering it to a society need would be I think very different and our attraction to each other would only be part of it -though certainly not lost. I am sure there would be many others. It would be an alien world maybe but like any sliding door moment would be one that is totally feasible if we think about it long enough.

No swimming pool for example would ever have people wearing any form of clothing - the illogical and unnecessary invention of swimwear just wouldn't have happened. Wisps of gauze or other items wouldn't have been added to art. Naturism wouldn't exist at all, as no such movement would ever have been needed. But what else? 

What do you think?

Recently I have been using the word instinctive as part of my description of naturism. It isn't that my thoughts have changed it is maybe that they have become more focused. 

I believe that naturism great chance of being more widely accepted is more people to recognise this. Being naked is our natural state, it is how we are born, it is as nature intended, and if you are religious it could also be considered as how God intended. Our false state is actually our dressed state. I am not suggesting we revert to nature, and reject clothes entirely. Though to be fair that may not be an awful thing. Clothes do serve a purpose - a purpose of protecting our delicate bodies from cold and damage - though surely once our bodies were tougher than they are now, ironic considering we live so much longer.  But if we can harness the idea that naturism isn't unusual, but actually totally natural (hence NATUR-ism) then people may be less concerned that it is something odd. We should seek to normalise nudity, it is not currently abnormal but instead rejoice in how normal it is. People on first trying naturism remark at how easy it is to feel at home with it. Simply because they instinctively know it is party of their basic natural being. 

So going back to this topic. How would you believe the world to be different now if we had never lost that instinct. A world where humans had maybe invented clothes for specific purposes. Surviving horrid winters. But never decided clothes served a job of hiding our bodies. Never learnt to consider the breasts or genitals as things that need covering. Never developed that shame, embarrassment or shock around nudity. Instead the world had always maintained a healthy attitude that nudity is natural part of every day life. 

How would people be different? How would society be different? How would history be different? It is all a jump of our imaginations but the knock on effects could be astounding, could be wonderful and they could be an idea of what our future could be like if we collectively re-find this instinct feeling towards nudity.

Our future will be one always effected by the history we have built with covering ourselves. So there are two scenarios

- 1 What would our present life be like now if we had never discovered that fear of nudity?
- 2 What would our future be like if we moved on from that fear today, and the world became clothing optional from this day forth.

The difference between the two will display the issues naturism needs to face. For example going naked today has a shock value that it would never have had if we had never found nudity an issue. 

Here is one thing that we wouldn't have to start with. If nudity had never become an issue and had always remained part of everyday life we would have terms like "naturism" because no one would need to label a part of life that every takes part in. And because of that we wouldn't have ANW, national societies, clubs, holiday venues etc aimed at naturism - because every holiday, every club, every campsite, every beach, every park, every garden would have people who feel instinctive right being naked in. 

So what else?

Reading through this thread, I can’t help feeling the real question to be asked here is, “Imagine a world where insecurities had never arisen, or humankind had evolved to overcome them. How much different would our world would be today?”

To some extent, John Lennon articulated a similar question and his imagination led him to “imagine all the people living for today.”

 

From my observations most abhorrent behaviour comes from fear.

 

Prejudices arise out of fear and mistrust of otherness. It doesn’t matter whether that otherness is nudity, homosexuality, religious beliefs, atheism, gender etc. We intrinsically fear the unknown. We laugh at animals that get spooked by the most benign things, and yet… here’s some examples where unfounded fear has been used to manipulate us into horrific outcomes.

 

The 20th century holocaust and the current Ukrainian genocide with terrifying parallels to the war crimes committed during the Nazi invasion of Europe.

 

The persecution and execution of hundreds/thousands (?) of women in the Middle Ages thought to be witches. The Spanish Inquisition. The Crusades. The Cold war. The Korean and Vietnam wars. The Gulf wars.

 

Something more current and relevant?

 

The election of Donald Trump, and global uprising of radical far right conservatism and nationalism in the wake of his presidency.

The long reign of John Howard in Australia. The human rights abuses of refugees that continue to this day thanks to his government; their ideologies and widespread ingrained fear of “others not like us” that the media, politicians and influential interest groups use to manipulate the masses.

 

All a leader need do is bark loud enough, bear teeth frightening enough and we cower and obediently comply even though every fibre of human decency within us pleads we stand up in committed opposition.

 

Clothes are a byproduct of fear not the root cause of aversion to nudity or all the other wrongs in the world. Naturism could be a way of learning to tactically overcome and manage insecurities derived from fear. As many naturists have come to discover.

 

I used to be a truly terrified kid. I was bullied relentlessly. I was physically and psychologically tortured and abused amongst many other abuses. I lived in personal terror till my late 20’s, early 30’s. I lived in a social cocoon to protect myself from the terrifying world.

 

Among the pivotal moments for me was somebody who spent over two hours talking me into a job I was convinced I couldn’t do. Not only did I figure out quickly I could do the job. I excelled at it.

Another moment was when I immigrated to Australia with about $300 to my name, a conviction things would somehow work out and 10 days after I arrived, 9-11 took place.

 

The third most pivotal moment was when I actively took to naturism as an adult. I like Steve and Anna’s perspective that everyone is born a naturist. We are in fact also born fearless. Both are programmed out of us as quickly and thoroughly as parentally possible. In certain cultures this is referred to as domestication.

 

What I have personally found is that naturism is a pathway to tactically overcoming and managing fear. Maybe not in and of itself, but certainly it’s a way of exploring boundaries.

It’s been a way to not just imagine a world that never invented clothes, but live in a world not completely governed by insecurity and fear.

 

A world not governed by fear would be one of compassion, acceptance and understanding. Sports and recreation would be based on fun and enjoyment, not aggressive competitiveness and hostility. It was amazing to watch the winter olympics and see how the female snowboarders congratulated and supported each other. They were genuinely stoked for the winner rather than remorseful and bitter they themselves hadn’t won.

 

In a world without fear children would continue to be free to roam and explore and discover themselves and others. If you’d like to swap the word fear with clothes, then feel free to. Clothes are a symptom in my view, not the cause.

 

In a world without insecurity and fear, people wouldn’t panic shop for toilet paper and irrationally do shopping raids to the detriment of everyone else. People would see how they could help others. I’m fairly certain people would be more community minded as they often are when calamity strikes. War sadly brings out the best in people reacting to the outrage caused by the worse in people. Maybe this happens because their worse fears have already been realised and they are able to clearly see the actual all too real adversary.

 

It took a mass shooting with 50+ fatalities of innocent people in their place of worship for NZ to wake up as a country and realise these were people. Human people just like everyone else. Who bleed and suffered and cried like everyone else would when such an unjust, inhumane atrocity takes place. Police detained muslim worshippers on suspicion it was one of them who were the terrorist!

 

Maybe naturism is a path to human healing because it isn’t nakedness in of and itself that is the difference. It’s the insecurities and ingrained fear we must face and conquer to wholly embrace naturism. It requires us to be at peace within ourselves I believe, to fully participate without hesitation. I’m not entirely sure everyone actually reaches that place.

I think MystrD has caught quite nicely the essence of this topic. To start off with we are asking what if the human race had never developed a hang up with nudity, because that fits with naturism, but yes the bigger picture would mean a different society, as MystrD puts it clothes are a reflection of our fears and not the cause. Though as each decade progresses the chicken and egg scenario gets harder to differentiate. The longer we use clothes from fear the tougher it is to see a world where clothing doesn't feed that fear. 

It is also interesting to look at how petty things can become when the going gets tough. Having something to combine is and fight against puts silly things into perspective. I have always believed that the vast majority of people are basically decent, but without a serious threat to deal with they look for trouble. When we were hunter gatherers we had enough to deal with just to survive without looking for reasons to be anti-social. 

How many people if they woke to their house on fire would worry about the state of their nudity when escaping the flames?

I think there is much to be spoken off on this topic. How society would be fundamentally different if it had remained relaxed about covering. Many religions for example demand certain dress codes, without the fear of nudity, and the control that comes with it, these religions would not have developed those ideas and appear more nurturing for it.

And also more petty things to consider, like the idea of charity base nude runs or bike rides would not exist, as why would people be sponsored or attract media attention through something that has remained common place and ordinary.

I'm taken here by Anna's suggestion in the other thread where I raised the question of what it would look like if nudity were normalized.  I guess it's a somewhat similar topic.

Human beings need to cover themselves when the situation asks for it.  That's how clothing was invented in the first place.  Many peoples do live day to day without clothes when there is no need for them.  First Nations here used to spend summer nude because clothes were not necessary.  The question here is what if that thinking applies to all people, and also why not all people think that way.

I think the answer is simple - because clothes carry meanings beyond their practical uses... they are status symbols, both then and now, and people crave status.

For the tribal people vs missionaries, missionariers brought tools and curious things that aidded the tribe's survival.  They are also always clothed.  That association probably caused some in the tribes to ask for clothes, so that they could be seen as superior in surviving like the missionaries.

Obviously in our own world, we know clothing and the way we look means everything in modern society - because we also want to be deemed superior, not in surviving in the wooden jungle but in the concrete one we built.  In the concrete, status is a survival tool.  We know we will live a better life when we have certain status, and how some other status will lead to a low life.  Sad but true.

And when certain people attained status, they would impose their ideals onto others to elevate their own statuses so to further secure their statuses.  The entire world's history repeats itself continuously on this.

So maybe no matter how many times the butterfly flips its wing, there will not ever be a lasting scenario where all people will choose to live nude when they have a choice to cloth themselves.  For the First Nations now, they wear clothes by choice whever they go, probably because of years of reconditioning done onto them by, sorry to say, also missionaries.

It's a power struggle that we are in, to claim the rights to live nude.  Maybe if somehow those being nude can gain a higher status than those clothed, then we can witness a reversal in people's moral compasses.

That said, by then maybe some of us don't want to be nude anymore!